why you can't pay for your account with PayPal or Google Checkout

[denise]

We've seen a bunch of people questioning why we don't accept payment via PayPal. We used to, but PayPal closed our account with them, after demanding that we censor our users' content to remove material that did not violate our Terms of Service but that made them uncomfortable. We refused to place restrictions on our users over and above the restrictions placed by US law, and so PayPal refused to process payments for us. (The same thing then happened with Google Checkout, before we found a payment processor that was willing to accept our business without placing further restrictions on user-generated content other than "is it legal".)

I know this is inconvenient for people without credit cards and people outside the US, and I'm sorry! We thought that sticking up for our users and maintaining our integrity was important enough to stick to our guns on the issue, though.

If you don't have a credit card, or are outside the US, there are a few payment methods you can use:

* We accept checks and money orders in US funds as well as credit cards. The address to send payments to is available in the shop. (We'll also accept US cash if it gets to us; however, we don't recommend it, since there's no way to track or recall a payment if it goes astray in the mail.)

* We accept prepaid Visa gift credit cards (prepaid Mastercards have some issues, so we don't recommend them), which are in many cases available in convenience stores and other similar locations, and if all else fails, can be bought online.

* If your debit card has a Visa logo on it, it's very likely it will also function as a Visa credit card.

* We accept American Express travelers' checks (sent to the same address as check/money order). They only come in limited denominations, but you can buy Dreamwidth Points for the amount you're going to send us, and then use those points over time for paid services.

* If you can't find any other method to pay, you can arrange a swap with a friend who has PayPal and a credit card: you PayPal them the money, and they put it on their credit card to buy you Dreamwidth Points, which you can use over time. We unfortunately can't offer anything official there, because we can't be responsible for any problems with transactions and if we offered anything official PayPal could freeze the accounts being used, but there's much less risk to doing it unofficially with a friend, except of course having to pick someone you trust enough to function as a proxy for you.

I know this is annoying for some people, and I'm really sorry about the inconvenience! We've investigated a number of different payment processors, both ones that people have suggested and ones that I've found on my own (seriously, sometimes I think I've probably read the Terms of Use of every single payment processor on the internet) and all of them either prohibit content that we allow, place unreasonable restrictions on sites that accept user-generated content, refuse service to sites that accept user-generated content, or have fee structures that are prohibitively expensive. The solution we've found really is the best and only solution that won't lead to future posting restrictions.

In the meantime, if anybody knows of a good place to get prepaid Visa credit cards in countries that don't usually use them, leave links and information in the comments!

Comments

[yamx]

Okay, I get the chargeback argument, but there's still a sizable difference between telling your (e.g.) wife, "I bought access to Slutty BLondes with Big Tits," and, "I bought myself a year's subscription to a journaling site." Plus, they could, but apparently don't, use the same argument to refuse working with LJ. So I still think there must be some other reason they don't want to work with DW...

[the_shoshanna]

Well, it didn't help that Dreamwidth was deliberately harassed by a group of trolls with ties to several hate speech organizations, who told lies to Paypal (and, later, to Google Checkout) about what it was hosting. See the dw-news post linked there, and subsequent posts to the community over the next few months, for details. So it is something specific to DW as opposed to LJ, but it's not anything actually about DW, just that LJ hasn't been harassed in that way by that group, and DW has.

And just because I like reminding people of it: from mid-January to the beginning of April 2010, DW was not only unable to receive payments except by check or money order, it was also extending paid account time for free for anyone whose account was expiring and who couldn't pay with check or money order. DW really put its money where its mouth was on its principles.

[yamx]

Oh, I didn't think it was anything *about* DW, I just figured there had to be some deeper reason why PP was picking on them. This explains it, thank you. :)

And yes, I love that DW is actually has the strength of its convictions.

[azurelunatic]

A lot of service providers for various things will overlook some really entertaining things until somehow the entertaining things are brought to their attention in a way they can't ignore.

DW inherited part of LJ's adult content flagging system, which was (iirc) put into place after the event known in some circles as "Strikethrough".(Various legal but unappealing-to-advertisers-and-many-bystanders stuff in people's personal journals, brought to the attention of management through a "concerned citizens" group that stank of troll wee? Suspend 'em all! Good going, Six Apart, good going.)

LJ's adult content system allows people to report stuff as being adult, and LJ's Abuse Prevention Team can slap an adult content label on the entry, and this provides a certain amount of satisfaction to people who might otherwise be up in arms about This Sort Of Thing On Our Interwebs.

DW's version gives the journal owner control, and anybody else who has a problem with the entry doesn't have much say in the matter unless the entry also happens to be illegal in the US.


I think that LJ's willingness to embrace the top-down hiding of adult things is very likely a reaction to campaigns of that nature, and a factor in why PayPal continues to do business with them.

[yamx]

Ah, I see. That makes sense. (Weirdly, this makes me a feel a bit more forgiving towards LJ for their heavy-handed approach.)

But I still prefer DW's philosophy of standing up for their users.