why you can't pay for your account with PayPal or Google Checkout

[denise]

We've seen a bunch of people questioning why we don't accept payment via PayPal. We used to, but PayPal closed our account with them, after demanding that we censor our users' content to remove material that did not violate our Terms of Service but that made them uncomfortable. We refused to place restrictions on our users over and above the restrictions placed by US law, and so PayPal refused to process payments for us. (The same thing then happened with Google Checkout, before we found a payment processor that was willing to accept our business without placing further restrictions on user-generated content other than "is it legal".)

I know this is inconvenient for people without credit cards and people outside the US, and I'm sorry! We thought that sticking up for our users and maintaining our integrity was important enough to stick to our guns on the issue, though.

If you don't have a credit card, or are outside the US, there are a few payment methods you can use:

* We accept checks and money orders in US funds as well as credit cards. The address to send payments to is available in the shop. (We'll also accept US cash if it gets to us; however, we don't recommend it, since there's no way to track or recall a payment if it goes astray in the mail.)

* We accept prepaid Visa gift credit cards (prepaid Mastercards have some issues, so we don't recommend them), which are in many cases available in convenience stores and other similar locations, and if all else fails, can be bought online.

* If your debit card has a Visa logo on it, it's very likely it will also function as a Visa credit card.

* We accept American Express travelers' checks (sent to the same address as check/money order). They only come in limited denominations, but you can buy Dreamwidth Points for the amount you're going to send us, and then use those points over time for paid services.

* If you can't find any other method to pay, you can arrange a swap with a friend who has PayPal and a credit card: you PayPal them the money, and they put it on their credit card to buy you Dreamwidth Points, which you can use over time. We unfortunately can't offer anything official there, because we can't be responsible for any problems with transactions and if we offered anything official PayPal could freeze the accounts being used, but there's much less risk to doing it unofficially with a friend, except of course having to pick someone you trust enough to function as a proxy for you.

I know this is annoying for some people, and I'm really sorry about the inconvenience! We've investigated a number of different payment processors, both ones that people have suggested and ones that I've found on my own (seriously, sometimes I think I've probably read the Terms of Use of every single payment processor on the internet) and all of them either prohibit content that we allow, place unreasonable restrictions on sites that accept user-generated content, refuse service to sites that accept user-generated content, or have fee structures that are prohibitively expensive. The solution we've found really is the best and only solution that won't lead to future posting restrictions.

In the meantime, if anybody knows of a good place to get prepaid Visa credit cards in countries that don't usually use them, leave links and information in the comments!

Comments

[scruloose]

Big kudos on putting users' right first!

I doubt that this is news to you, but I remember reading that when the Diaspora* folks had a run-in with Paypal they ended up switching to a payment processor called Stripe. Just thought I'd mention that in case it helps any.

[denise]

Yeah, we found Stripe after we found our existing payment gateway & merchant account provider (whom we generally don't name in public because we've been the target of organized trolling that actually kicked off the whole shebang) -- they accept the same cards that our existing processor does, so there's no point in moving.

Plus, they do technically prohibit adult content, while our existing payment gateway and merchant account providers don't, and even though that's a small fraction of the content on DW, it's the vector that was being used against us, so we're really, really wary of any service that has those prohibitions in the ToU. That's the problem with nearly every single other alternative: because the "porn industry" has an incredibly high rate of chargebacks, and because a payment gateway's agreements with the card companies say that they'll turn off any merchant that has a high chargeback rate (and card companies will drop a payment gateway if they have too many chargebacks anyway, even if the payment gateway drops the merchant), most payment gateways just refuse any merchant that has any adult content at all. You have to work really hard to find one that doesn't have those restrictions. (I think I called about a hundred before we found one.)

[lederhosen]

I'm late to the party, but thank you very much for sticking to your guns on this. I think it may be time for me to get a paid account :-)

[azurelunatic]

Stripe's TOS:

5. Prohibited Businesses
... (38) sexually-oriented or pornographic products or services ...


If I recall correctly, this is one of the usual sticking points. While Dreamwidth itself is not in the business of selling sexually oriented or pornographic products or services, it does not restrict users from posting same, so long as it's legal.

I am told that actual legitimate purveyors of sexually explicit materials have a fantastically high chargeback rate (on account of people getting caught and claiming that their credit card was mis-appropriated, they would never buy that stuff, and on account of people being able to get away with it) and thus some payment processors don't want anything to do with it not for moral reasons, but for pragmatic business reasons.

And that same spirit of fiscal conservatism looks at a site that says "well, yes, sometimes our users do upload things that are sexually explicit, and yes, we do sell paid accounts for the site" and says "Yeah, and what exactly distinguishes you from a porn site? NEXT!" without waiting to hear the "But paid account status has nothing to do with whether you can see the smut!" and the "No, smut is not actually the first thing you see when you walk into the site unless you won the Latest Things jackpot".

[jumpuphigh]

unless you won the Latest Things jackpot

*snort*

[chagrined]

Thx to both you and Denise for explaining this bit about the chargebacks. This never made sense to me before, like, why PayPal etc. would have that kind of policy in the first place, so I appreciate the explanation of their business logic. And I'm still glad about DW's actions wrt this issue.