denise: Image: Me, facing away from camera, on top of the Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome (Default)
Denise ([staff profile] denise) wrote in [site community profile] dw_biz2012-02-13 03:45 pm

feature design brainstorming: icon add-ons

We said last month that [staff profile] mark's next big project is going to be icon add-on packs to let people buy more icon slots if they want, and this week he and I have been brainstorming ideas to make it work in the quickest, easiest, and most usable fashion. This is what we're currently thinking the system will look like, for you guys to mull over and point out all the things we've no doubt forgotten to think about. ;)

Goal: To let people buy as many icon slots as they want (up to whatever limit we impose for overall performance reasons), as simply and easily as possible.

We started out with the idea that this should be something the user can decide (how many slots you want), not sold in pre-specified numbers of icon packs that stack on top of each other. We kicked around a few ideas for a while of how to make that work (such as paying per icon slot per month, etc), but everything we tried to come up with got really confusing very quickly: we would have had to track a lot of different things, and explaining pro-rating to people is really hard, and it would've been really hard to add more icons later if you decided you didn't have enough.

So, our current working theory: we will charge you up front for each icon slot you want to add, and paying for another icon slot will give you that slot permanently, for whenever you have a paid account. (We have a vague idea of what each slot will cost, but it's not set in stone yet, so I don't want to commit to anything; I'll use the variable $amount while I'm explaining, in order to avoid making any promises.) If your paid account expires, you'll go back to the number of icons a free account gets; if you renew your paid account, you'll go back up to the paid account icons + your add-ons.

It's probably easiest to talk through some practical examples of common scenarios, so everyone's on the same page: let's say that I have a premium paid account, so I have 250 icons. I want 270 icons. I pay $amount to permanently buy those 20 icons; my icon slots go from 250 to 270. In a year, my premium paid time is about to expire, so I renew it for another year; I only have to pay the $50 to renew the premium paid time, and my icon slots stays at 270, not the 250 a premium paid account usually gets, because I bought those 20 icons permanently.

Next year, my premium paid account expires (back down to 15 icons, curses!), and I'm kind of low on cash, so I decide to renew it as a regular paid account ($35 for the year; 100 icons), not a premium paid account. But! I previously bought those 20 extra icon slots. Those still exist, but they're applied to the paid account icon limit (100 icons), not the premium paid account icon limit (250 icons): I'd have the 100 icon slots a paid account usually gets, plus the 20 I permanently bought, for 120 icons.

After a few months, though, I decide I can't live with only 120 icons, and I decide to buy some more. I pay $amount to permanently buy another 50 icon slots. My new icon count is now 170: the 100 for a paid account, the 20 I previously bought, and the 50 I just bought.

When account renewal comes around, I decide I miss the premium paid account benefits, so I renew as premium paid ($50 for the year; 250 icons). I now have the 250 icon slots that come standard with a premium paid account, plus the 20 I bought a long time ago, plus the 50 I bought recently, for a total of 320 icons.

So, you're only buying the icon slots once, and they last forever -- but, you have to have a paid account to access them. (This is to avoid people buying just icon slots, which is bad for us from a business standpoint based on how we set our account limits. For an explanation of why you won't be able to just buy icons without a paid account, see two old mailing list messages I wrote back when we were in development: #1, which explains why you can't buy paid features a-la-carte, and #2, which specifically gets into icons.)

We'll be pricing icon slots based on the cost to support them over time, so you'd pay more up-front than you would in a yearly, expiring type deal. You'll never have to pay again, though, so it will be cheaper in the long run.

What if you want to switch to using a different account, though, the way we know roleplayers like to do? You'd be stuck paying the up-front cost over and over again for each account, which would not be very fair! So, instead we make it possible for you to switch icon slots from account to account.

Let's say I have two accounts, [profile] x and [profile] y. [profile] x is a premium paid account (250 icons) and I bought 50 extra icon slots for it over time (total of 300 icons). [profile] y is a paid account (100 icons). I decide I want to stop using [profile] x and switch to using [profile] y instead: I can go to the icon slot mover tool and say "switch my extra icon slots", and move the 50 extra slots from [profile] x to [profile] y. Now [profile] x has 250 icon slots (the standard with the premium paid account), and [profile] y has 150 icon slots (the standard 100 with the paid account + my 50 extra slots that I bought).

(We may charge a small amount to move icon slots from one account to another, especially if it's been a while since you bought them, like the way we charge for a rename token. But we haven't decided that yet; it will depend on what the numbers look like when we diagram the costs of all this out more fully.)

There will be a limit on how many slots you can buy at first -- this is because the system isn't very optimized for large numbers of icons, either for resource usage or for the user interface of displaying and selecting large numbers of icons. (We can fix that over time, and we will! But that will take time, and we'd rather release the feature with a lower limit now than wait. Whatever limit we pick when we release it will almost certainly be raised later once we can do the work.) It's also possible that we might have two limits, and charge $amount for each slot up to limit #1, and $amount*2 for each slot from limit #1 to limit #2, but that, too, will be up in the air until we can really plot out the technical and business details of this way of doing things.

So, if this is all still up in the air, why am I posting about it now? Simple: We know that we can't know everything about how people use their accounts and how people want to use their icons. So, consider this the open invitation to pick holes in this plan: what kind of usage are we forgetting to think about/account for? What problems do you see?

(Also, because I know a lot of people are really sweet about worrying what this will mean for us-as-a-business: we already did all the back-of-the-envelope feasability tests, and this should remain feasable over time. We're gambling that the cost of disk space, bandwidth, and processor power will continue to go down over time the way it's been going, historically, so the pay-once model for icons should work fine for us -- and because it will be tied to paid accounts we won't be promising future services without any additional income the way we would for seed accounts.)
chagrined: Marvel comics: zombie!Spider-Man, holding playing cards, saying "Brains?" (brains?)

[personal profile] chagrined 2012-02-13 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
You mention seed accounts at the end there; how would this work for them, then? If someone has a seed account and pays for additional icons, is that still only a one-time fee? Then it seems like it could be the "promising future services without any additional income" thing.
mark: A photo of Mark kneeling on top of the Taal Volcano in the Philippines. It was a long hike. (Default)

[staff profile] mark 2012-02-13 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
My current thinking is that they would just last forever. I believe that we have few enough seed accounts that this will come out in the wash as far as the business practicality goes.

And, as always, insert a caveat about "if it turns out the numbers stop making sense, we'll post and let people know and solicit feedback about how to fix things as well as some ideas". We will do so with plenty of notice to turn things around. (We always have 6+ months of cash in the bank, as per our Operating Agreement, so we really do have plenty of time to go 'hm, that doesn't work' and then fix it.)
mark: A photo of Mark kneeling on top of the Taal Volcano in the Philippines. It was a long hike. (Default)

[staff profile] mark 2012-02-13 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
278 00
91 10
56 20
57 30
56 40
50 50
37 60
46 70
36 80
40 90
35 100
26 110
34 120
34 130
26 140
22 150
17 160
17 170
15 180
29 190
19 200
12 210
6 220
10 230
22 240
14 250

So, 14 seed accounts have 250 active userpics. 22 more have 240+, 10 have 230+, etc etc.
februaryfour: (Default)

[personal profile] februaryfour 2012-02-14 06:10 am (UTC)(link)
*is a 10-or-fewer* ^_^ I really have no interest in all those icons. I know I'm definitely on the "subsidizing others" end of the icon spectrum. I make up for it in mobile features and tracking, though, and I live for the day embedding is a cut-some-code-and-paste-into-website-html!
sophie: A cartoon-like representation of a girl standing on a hill, with brown hair, blue eyes, a flowery top, and blue skirt. ☀ (Default)

[personal profile] sophie 2012-02-14 05:19 am (UTC)(link)
If I'm understanding right, that last sentence can basically be reparsed as "14 seed accounts have 250 active userpics, 22 accounts have 240-249 userpics, 10 have 230-239 userpics, etc etc.", right?

In which case, 278 seed accounts have 0-9 userpics. That actually surprises me (even though I'm actually one of the 278); I had figured most people would be using a ton more.

Am I misunderstanding, or do I have that right?

Edit: Assuming that this is correct, I've made some calculations and calculated estimated values for the percentage of the icon pool each group is taking up assuming that each user in a group is using the median number in their group (so, for example, a user in the 0-9 group is assumed to be using 4.5 icons):

Number of userpics per userEstimated percentage (estimated total icons)
0-91.6% (1251 icons)
10-191.7% (1319.5 icons)
20-291.7% (1372 icons)
30-392.5% (1966.5 icons)
40-493.1% (2492 icons)
50-593.4% (2725 icons)
60-693.0% (2386.5 icons)
70-794.3% (3427 icons)
80-893.8% (3042 icons)
90-994.8% (3780 icons)
100-1094.6% (3657.5 icons)
110-1193.7% (2977 icons)
120-1295.3% (4233 icons)
130-1395.7% (4573 icons)
140-1494.7% (3757 icons)
150-1594.3% (3399 icons)
160-1693.5% (2796.5 icons)
170-1793.7% (2966.5 icons)
180-1893.5% (2767.5 icons)
190-1997.1% (5640.5 icons)
200-2094.9% (3885.5 icons)
210-2193.2% (2574 icons)
220-2291.7% (1347 icons)
230-2392.9% (2345 icons)
240-2496.8% (5379 icons)
2504.4% (3500 icons)
Total:100.0% (79559.5 icons)

There are some really interesting things in there. For example, the number of icons used by the people in the 220-229 group is only just over the number of icons used by the entirety of the 0-9 group, yet the 190-199 group is using over four times that amount.

Of course, this data is based on seed accounts only, and according to your data there are only 1085 of those. This won't be anywhere close to the 'normal' activity on the site, I suspect. (This part mainly put in for the benefit of other people seeing this post.)

I'm not sure what this means precisely, but I found it interesting enough to share :D
Edited (Adding reminder that this is for seed accounts only.) 2012-02-14 06:34 (UTC)
green_knight: (Happy Penguin)

[personal profile] green_knight 2012-02-14 08:02 pm (UTC)(link)
My guess is that since LJ has ca. 200 icon slots, the people who were maxed out there imported them to DW but didn't add more.

(I leave a few slots in case I have a burning desire to add a new icon without having to delete one right there and then.)
eien_herrison: Twilight Sparkle (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic) looking at the moon with it reflected in her pupil (Twilight Moon)

[personal profile] eien_herrison 2012-03-17 09:44 am (UTC)(link)
For me, I'm one of the 1372 using between 20 and 29 icons -- coming from LJ where I only have a maximum of 15, 250 seems like an immense number. I add, delete, chop, change, decide I don't like an icon any more/am not interested in the fandom/canon behind it. I do have a couple more icons that I should copy over, which will move me in to the next number band.

(I mainly got a seed account to support DW than any over-interest in the addional features, but having a variety of icons and the random icon button is nice for me :))
tameiki: (Default)

[personal profile] tameiki 2012-03-18 04:02 am (UTC)(link)
Every time somebody says something like this, it gives me such a warm fuzzy feeling, you have no idea.

I, too, bought a seed account because I believe in Dreamwidth. You've proven time and again that you're trustworthy, have integrity, look out for your userbase, and truly value your "customers". That, and the transparency in what you're doing all make one gorgeous package I couldn't resist! :)
sophie: A cartoon-like representation of a girl standing on a hill, with brown hair, blue eyes, a flowery top, and blue skirt. ☀ (Default)

[personal profile] sophie 2012-03-17 05:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Just to clarify, the 1372 figure refers to the estimated total number of icons used by the users in that group, not to the number of users in that group. The number of seed accounts in that group is 56, as indicated in Mark's post.

I'm personally one of the seeds with 0-9 icons, myself. (To be exact, I have 8 icons.)
Edited 2012-03-17 17:18 (UTC)
pauamma: Cartooney crab holding drink (Default)

[personal profile] pauamma 2012-03-18 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Am I misunderstanding, or do I have that right?
Unless Mark got the numbers wrong, you pretty much have to be right, since there can't be fewer accounts with 230 icons or more than accounts with 240 icons or more. :-)
lollobrigida: (Default)

[personal profile] lollobrigida 2012-03-21 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I know I did my seed account and was pretty close to maxed out at the time with 175 icons, but I paid for it to support the community when it was starting, but I haven't even changed icons over on LJ when I have a perm account there too. I have loyalty slots stacking up and everything, but I just don't use it as often as I use my RP accounts.
copracat: Teyla and Ronon smililng at each other (atlantis - sisters)

[personal profile] copracat 2012-02-14 02:24 am (UTC)(link)
This seed account has carefully not maxed out icons (215 of 250) just in case that was all I'd ever have. It's been comforting to know that I could add an icon without deleting an icon, but it means I have been quite frugal about adding new icons

I would totes give you more money for more icons, of course, and I would fill my current slots if I knew that 250 wasn't my limit.

(I love the 'random icon' button ever so much.)
ivorygates: (1. STARGATE: GATE: IVORYGATE ivorygate b)

[personal profile] ivorygates 2012-02-14 05:51 am (UTC)(link)
As [personal profile] copracat says below, I would if that wasn't all I had. I'm totally up for moar...

(Say, another 250?)
ai: (you lost me)

[personal profile] ai 2012-02-14 06:56 pm (UTC)(link)
As a roleplayer, I'll be the first to admit I would consider buying icon packages for my paid accounts instead of my seed account. I can't say this would work for the majority, but it may be something else to keep in mind as well.
chagrined: Marvel comics: zombie!Spider-Man, holding playing cards, saying "Brains?" (brains?)

[personal profile] chagrined 2012-02-13 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Cool, thanks to both of you for the answers! :) Yes, heh, as a seed account holder myself, I probably wouldn't use more icon space, since I don't even use the space I have now, but I was interested in knowing more about how it'd work anyway.
kyrielle: A photo of kyrielle, in profile, turned slightly toward the viewer (Default)

[personal profile] kyrielle 2012-02-13 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
And I wanted to have permanent "premium paid" features, but...dear lord I will never use all my current icon slots. (Never say never. But I think it unlikely. Heh. I actually am contemplating *removing* some of my icons. I swear I have some I never have used, and likely never will.)
haruka: kermit waving arms with caption yay omg (zz - kermit-yay)

[personal profile] haruka 2012-02-13 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
That's a relief, because I'm one seed account holder who will definitely be purchasing more icons! :D My wife and I are tired of RPing on Insanejournal only because all our icons are there. We miss our DW features when we're away!
killua: <user name="killua"> (ahiru: ohmygod i'm so embarrassed)

[personal profile] killua 2012-02-13 10:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I have a seed account (and I bought it because I love Dreamwidth and wanted to throw money at you to make sure you could get past the bootstrapping phase)! I like to keep my icon number around 190 because FOR SOME REASON I LIKE HAVING A BUFFER. But I do know that when I had a premium account, everything you've listed here is exactly what I would have wanted. ....If I do ever end up maxing out and want more icon slots, this is exactly how I would love to have it work. ♥
tyger: Aqua's Avatar Kingdom chibi.  Text: Aqua (Aqua - chibi)

[personal profile] tyger 2012-02-13 11:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I bought mine because DW is shiny and I love it! For me, I'll probably buy extra icons eventually, but I fill my icon slots really slowly, when I feel like I need a new one and can be bothered making it, so I still only have less than 80 uploaded. (On the downside? for you, I don't delete icons, so it'll continue to gradually rise.)
ellen_fremedon: overlapping pages from Beowulf manuscript, one with a large rubric, on a maroon ground (Default)

[personal profile] ellen_fremedon 2012-02-14 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
I have a seed account, and while I've somehow managed to accumulate 21 icons, this is the only one I ever use. I don't even bother to acquire new icons anymore; I have accepted that I'm just never going to use them.
triadruid: Apollo and the Raven, c. 480 BC , Pistoxenus Painter  (Default)

[personal profile] triadruid 2012-02-13 09:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting model (buying slots, not access to the slots per se). Is anyone else doing this, or is it a wholly new paradigm?

Also, I'm curious if you've worked out the what-expires-when algorithm yet - I think LJ does, or did, it based on usage. When you drop from 320 to 170 or 15, what stays accessible?
musyc: Green background with silver snake illustration (Slytherin: Mascot)

[personal profile] musyc 2012-02-13 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Would there be some way possible to select "please keep these fifteen as active"? I don't know if the coding would be too complex or if the option would be confusing, but I know whenever my icons expired, LJ always picked the most random and useless ones. I rarely changed from my default in my journal, but I used a variety in comms and comments - the very places I commented most often with a non-default icon were the places I couldn't switch, after an expiration. (I'm thinking things like my mod icon for a comm I owned, or an OTP icon I always used for fic advertising. Icons that were never used in my journal, used A LOT outside of it.)
musyc: Stock photo of old-fashioned hanging lantern (Stock: Lantern)

[personal profile] musyc 2012-02-13 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)
OH YAY HURRAH. Yes, yes, yes. As you've said so often, it's the tiny things that make people so happy. That's one of mine. XD
elialshadowpine: (Default)

[personal profile] elialshadowpine 2012-02-13 10:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh goddess bless you. My icon pack on LJ just expired (because of all the "free" time they have added due to the DDoSes, my actual paid account doesn't expire for a bit yet) and there is absolutely no rhyme nor reason to what they've chosen to keep active.

Along those lines, is there support for changing your default icon when you technically are out of icon spaces?
elialshadowpine: (Default)

[personal profile] elialshadowpine 2012-02-14 09:54 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, I meant more replacing the default with one you want to upload, but thinking about that, I can see how that would probably be a PITA to code. (I'm running into this on LJ where I have some 200 icons and no desire to give them more money but want to change my default and in order to do so I have to delete...... argh)
kaberett: Grinning emoticon. (:D)

[personal profile] kaberett 2012-02-13 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)
*happy flapping*
pipisafoat: fry (tv: futurama) excited with arms in the air. text: yay! (yay!)

[personal profile] pipisafoat 2012-02-14 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
triadruid: Apollo and the Raven, c. 480 BC , Pistoxenus Painter  (Default)

[personal profile] triadruid 2012-02-14 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
That would be absolutely lovely.
citymusings: (Text - Happier Than Bird w/ a French Fry)

[personal profile] citymusings 2012-03-25 05:40 am (UTC)(link)
I love this option! (I wanted to squee in caps, but yelling at people isn't polite...) I love paid time and don't plan to stop getting it, but it gives me the warm and fuzzies to know that y'all are taking steps to make things more user-friendly.
mark: A photo of Mark kneeling on top of the Taal Volcano in the Philippines. It was a long hike. (Default)

[staff profile] mark 2012-02-13 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I admit, I drew some of the inspiration from models like this I've seen in MMOs/online games that I've played. I.e., you pay $x to access an additional character slot, which you then get to keep as long as your account is active. World of Warcraft uses this with bank slots, e.g., but that's in-game currency and not dollars. Similar idea though.

Personally, I consider it a compromise between having a system that is "ideal" for the business (pay for what you use) and "ideal" for the customer (minimize confusion, maximize utility). While Dreamwidth stands to make more money (over time, less up front) if we implemented a system like LJ's, I think that it's not the right call for us.

Additionally, the proposed system is cheaper on some other fronts -- easier to build, easier to maintain, easier to document, easier to support. That counts for a lot right now -- we're a small project! We don't really have tons of staff, and almost every one of our developers also has day jobs that pay the bills.
mark: A photo of Mark kneeling on top of the Taal Volcano in the Philippines. It was a long hike. (Default)

[staff profile] mark 2012-02-13 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Only hours? ;)
triadruid: Apollo and the Raven, c. 480 BC , Pistoxenus Painter  (Default)

[personal profile] triadruid 2012-02-14 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I figured she meant "per person".

Thanks for the explanation. I don't do pay-MMOs so that makes more sense.
pauamma: Cartooney crab holding drink (Default)

[personal profile] pauamma 2012-03-18 07:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I was already the userdoc admin then, and IIRC it took us a half-dozen attempts to get the FAQs right, spread over several weeks/months because no one could say definitely "the current version is wrong", let alone "this is what it should say instead", not even the userpics admin(s).
kate: Kate Winslet is wryly amused (Default)

[personal profile] kate 2012-02-13 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Not helpful, but: \o/

This sounds like an excellent plan. And I'm a seed account that probably won't be buying any icon slots, though I might buy them for my other (paid) account.
opusculus: Higurashi's Rika and Hanyuu are adorable and innocent and totally safe (Innocuous adorableness)

[personal profile] opusculus 2012-02-13 09:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I like this a lot, personally. Even when I was buying the add-on packages for icons for LJ I never quite bothered understanding it, and this suits perfectly how I actually go through my accounts.

My big question from this is how will you be able to split up icon slots when you transfer accounts? Say you're an RPer, and you had 10 characters, and you got a new job and dropped down to 4 for a bit because you just didn't have time, and then when you started adjusting to the new job you went back to 6 or so and want to redivide some of the ones you sent to the four accounts when you dropped. Or, for that matter, say you've played this character for years, know exactly what icons you need and you need forty extra and you have 60 extra, and you have this shiny new just apped character who needs all the icons. How flexibly could you divide them among your accounts?
kyrielle: A photo of kyrielle, in profile, turned slightly toward the viewer (Default)

[personal profile] kyrielle 2012-02-13 10:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I can see that being a headache for someone who consolidates and then regrets it, but I also see the advantage to not letting someone shove bits here and pieces there. If partial transfers are allowed, maybe only two options - "all extra slots" or "block of X" where X is an acceptable (business-wise) number. For example, if X ended up being 20, someone with 10 extra slots would have to transfer them all - but someone with 25 could transfer 20, then transfer the other 5 somewhere else (or keep them there). Someone with 80 could transfer 20 off and keep the other 60, or send batches of 20 to four separate accounts.

...I'm actually just musing about ways to keep it simple if it's done, and not suggesting it should be or shouldn't be done, by the way. I cannot imagine a future in which I need more icons than this account can have. *wry*
opusculus: Digital Devil Saga's Argilla's voring mouthboobs (Cannibal mouthboobs)

[personal profile] opusculus 2012-02-13 10:22 pm (UTC)(link)
That makes sense! I'd expect complete granularity or all at once for the sake of simplicity, and complete granularity just strikes me as an invitation to constantly max out the icons based on who they're playing today for some RPers. A mild ongoing cost for the way some RPers prefer to play sounds more reasonable to me.

[personal profile] primal_laughter 2012-02-14 05:29 am (UTC)(link)
This worries me. Because basically it'd mean that if at some point I had two accounts with extra icon slots, and then I decided I only needed one for a while, but then wanted to go back to two, I wouldn't be able to do that! Which makes the whole iconslot-transfer system extremely inflexible and clunky - basically I'd probably never transfer iconslots from multiple accounts into one account, because I'd be too worried about not being able to go back to having two accounts, but then if I ended up only using the one account for years on end, which I very well might, I wouldn't feel like I was getting value for my money.

I'm not sure if there's a practical solution with respect to coding for it. Financially, I think having a fee for icon transfer, or only allowing each slot to be transferred a few times a year, or a combination of the two, would be all right, and should cut down on people transferring icon slots really frequently.

The ability to transfer icon slots in a genuinely useful manner is a major issue for me. Other than that, I think it's a very good idea (though I didn't have an issue with LJ's system either).

Also, I think you guys are AWESOME for explaining all this in advance. In particular, thank you so much for those two emails you linked to explain why you won't let people buy just icon slots! For the first time in my life this makes sense to me. :D
elialshadowpine: (Default)

[personal profile] elialshadowpine 2012-02-14 09:55 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I agree with this. While I don't ever see myself using more than one account, if I did, a restriction like this would really trigger my anxiety about transferring. I agree that some kind of fee would be a good solution here, because people aren't likely to pay unless they're really serious about it.
triadruid: Apollo and the Raven, c. 480 BC , Pistoxenus Painter  (Default)

[personal profile] triadruid 2012-02-14 07:39 pm (UTC)(link)
It would seem to me that being able to move 'all the slots' at once would be computationally cheap, and thus in the core programming. Being able to split them up might involve a one-time rebalancing fee (subject to business model, etc etc).
xwingace: (Default)

[personal profile] xwingace 2012-02-14 05:30 am (UTC)(link)
Another user musing along: In the situation described by
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<user="opusculus">') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Another user musing along: In the situation described by <user="opusculus">, the icon packs were first bought as separate packs. Would allowing them to be transferred in the original quantities of those packs be difficult to implement? That doesn't punish people who want to consolidate, but at least partially averts the problem.

pauamma: Cartooney crab holding drink (Default)

[personal profile] pauamma 2012-03-18 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not designing or implementing the feature, so I may be talking outta my ass, but I think doing that would completely take away the "easy to implement and document" benefits Mark mentioned upcomment.
algeh: (hmm)

[personal profile] algeh 2012-02-13 10:05 pm (UTC)(link)
That sounds like a well-thought-out plan, while not something I'd actually use (I'd basically like to be able to use all of the icons I already have and use on LJ, which is less than 50 but more than 15, here also without a recurring cost because I suck at those, and I understand why it doesn't make business sense for you to offer me some way to permanently up my quota to 40-ish icons from 15 without a recurring payment, so that's more of an "I want a pony, but definitely not to take care of a pony" want).

What I'd really like (in addition to being able to select *which* 15 I get to keep, which I see from the comments above is already in the bug database) is to be able to mark over-quota icons as "archival" or something rather than deleting them so that I'd be able to easily re-activate them with the same keywords (and have them thus again show up on old posts/comments) if I ever did buy a paid account again.

Right now, if I want to track that info for possible icon re-use if I buy a paid account again later, I have to make a note-to-self somewhere of what keywords I've used with what icon before I delete it and save the icon elsewhere with that info attached. Since the icon costs presumably come mostly from displaying the icon all over the site rather than from storing it on disk, I suspect only making it viewable to the user and no one else and only on their icons page (or even on a separate "archived icons" page to further reduce incidental loads) wouldn't add too much cost compared with deletion (and possibly add a temptation for users to re-buy their paid account again since they'd then be able to quickly use the old icon they remembered they wanted, whereas now they'd have to go look for it and might get sidetracked in that process).
ldybastet: (GazettE - hands)

[personal profile] ldybastet 2012-02-13 10:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh wow! That would be amazing!!! :D
noxie: friendly girl smiling (Default)

[personal profile] noxie 2012-02-18 11:20 am (UTC)(link)

Love the idea of icon sets, [staff profile] denise!
algeh: (Default)

[personal profile] algeh 2012-02-13 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
That's a wonderful way to handle it. I'd probably use such a thing if it came to be.
kerravonsen: (Default)

[personal profile] kerravonsen 2012-02-13 10:38 pm (UTC)(link)

I am hanging out for image hosting, and this "icon sets" idea has made it even better.
killua: <lj site="" user="parron"> // <lj site="" user="satura_te"> (goten: omg omg omg this is great!)

[personal profile] killua 2012-02-13 10:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Ohmygosh Dreamwidth is already amazing but it just keeps something better and better. I'm waiting impatiently (but very happily and actually quite patiently butiwantitwantitwantit) for the image hosting and this icon set idea just makes it sound even more amazing. *3*
bzero: (A-Team)

[personal profile] bzero 2012-02-14 12:02 am (UTC)(link)
$diety, you guys rock. =)
zaluzianskya: (Squee)

[personal profile] zaluzianskya 2012-02-14 01:00 am (UTC)(link)
Oh wow, that would come in real handy for RP accounts in games that have regular transformation-type events (genderswaps, anyone?). That would be awesome.
lorax: The Wall Is Cold (GoT - The North "The Wall")

[personal profile] lorax 2012-02-14 05:41 am (UTC)(link)
This would be amazing.
elialshadowpine: (Default)

[personal profile] elialshadowpine 2012-02-14 09:56 am (UTC)(link)
drawnthatway: (Default)

[personal profile] drawnthatway 2012-02-14 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
That is the single best icon related idea I have heard for journal sites. I am all for it.
lovesickkiller: (OMG!)

[personal profile] lovesickkiller 2012-02-14 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
That would be wonderful!
snoopypez: (asp | :D with teeth muhaha)

[personal profile] snoopypez 2012-02-14 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
This would be AMAZING.
zellieh: two cats entwined in a heart shape, text: I heart you with kittens (cats: two cats: i heart you with kittens)

[personal profile] zellieh 2012-02-15 02:53 am (UTC)(link)
See, this is why I love you and Mark: You made a post about a really nice feature that I like the sound of, and then when I go through the comments, you're all, "oh, yeah -- and we're planning this other great thing, too! And this one! And this one! And this one..."

Happy Valentine's Day! @}->->--
shibaface: (Default)

[personal profile] shibaface 2012-02-16 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
You guys are my favoritest.
tatsube: (Happier Times)

[personal profile] tatsube 2012-03-17 02:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I love this idea so much!
inabmovie: (Default)

[personal profile] inabmovie 2012-03-17 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
oooh, I love this idea.
ocariness: (Ecstatically.)

[personal profile] ocariness 2012-03-17 11:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Bless you, Denise. Mark. Everyone!!

All of these, I'm so hopeful, I love this. These tiny things are so huge to me, omg. Holiday swapping and silly icons to archive and whatnot would be so awesome.

I have an icon addiction and the idea of swapping and changing things when they run out is absolutely wonderful akjshdg ;___;

also somehow I'm always logged in to this account when I go to comment on DW type things...
Edited (is marching even a valid word for that sentence) 2012-03-17 23:43 (UTC)
citymusings: (RAWR  - ILY in dinosaur)

[personal profile] citymusings 2012-03-25 05:48 am (UTC)(link)

You're amazing! I didn't know I needed this until you mentioned the possibility!
got_swagger: (Default)

[personal profile] got_swagger 2012-07-23 06:10 am (UTC)(link)

For realsies? This would be glorious!
kriski: (Default)

[personal profile] kriski 2012-02-13 10:17 pm (UTC)(link)
i love the idea. i have about 80 icons uploaded right now. and use regularly (or, you know, AT ALL) maybe half a dozen. icon-heavy is just not the way my personal DW usage developed over time. so, unfortunately, i cannot give constructive input in terms of possible snags i might forsee...i'm simply very unlikely to ever come close to even looking in that direction.

however, I LOVE THE IDEA LOTS! it sounds very logical and fair and if it's feasible to you from a business perspective, i'll be proud and pleased as punch to have my online home at a place that can be a variety of things for an oodleplex of user needs.
algeh: (hmm)

[personal profile] algeh 2012-02-13 10:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Having through about it slightly more, here's a dynamic that you may not have considered (I'm not sure how it actually affects your calculations, but it's worth thinking about if you haven't):

"Gifting" icon slots around between users. For example, [user 1] posts "I'm going to let my paid account lapse because reasons. Who wants my extra icon slots, since I won't be using them anymore?" [user 2], who has a paid account and likes free stuff, steps up and asks for them, and the slots are transferred to [user 2]'s account.

In and of itself, this may or may not be an issue you've already thought of, but it also creates two new additional sources of headaches that may be less obvious:

- [user 1] buys a paid account again in a year and wants [user 2] to give them back their icon slots. [user 2] either doesn't want to, or, if implemented as upthread where you can't transfer partial amounts of slots, may be unable to due to having also bought other slots. Anger ensues. Presuambly, this can be solved by making it officially Not DW's Problem, but it's worth being aware of.

- [user 1], rather than gifting the slots to [user 2], sells them to [user 2] for less than the cost they'd be to buy originally. [user 1] is happy because they got money for something they aren't able to use anyway, [user 2] is happy because they got a discount, but it creates problems for Dreamwidth since people would presumably look for icons on this "secondary market" before buying directly from DW and thus throw off the cost projections, and also because, no matter what kind of DON'T DO THIS NO REALLY policy DW has in place, users would still get defrauded and then complain to DW when someone didn't follow through with transferring the slots they'd "paid" for.
tameiki: (Default)

[personal profile] tameiki 2012-02-14 03:01 am (UTC)(link)
But you could "gift" extra icon space from the original page like we can paid time, right?

Even though I'm only using 28 of my seed 250 and not likely to need/want more, I think this is a great idea! Gifting icon space via buying icon points would be perfect for some of my friends :)

Egads! But I love how you guys ask for your userbase's opinions and talk to us like this. *huggles hard*
Edited (Had to correct a singular "friend" to a plural "friends". Luckily I have more than one. XDDD) 2012-02-14 03:03 (UTC)
tameiki: (Bleach - Nova <3)

[personal profile] tameiki 2012-02-14 03:18 am (UTC)(link)
*bounces* That would be SO great! *squees*


triadruid: Apollo and the Raven, c. 480 BC , Pistoxenus Painter  (Default)

[personal profile] triadruid 2012-02-14 07:40 pm (UTC)(link)
That seems totally fair.
green_knight: (Anglerfish)

[personal profile] green_knight 2012-02-14 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
It seems to me that DW already has the concept of a master account (I believe this came up in regard to import or communities), so the icon thing would extend that - you can transfer between your own accounts but not to somebody else.

(edited to remove superfluousity - I see it's transfer between paid only anyway)
Edited 2012-02-14 20:17 (UTC)
slays: (Default)

[personal profile] slays 2012-02-14 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)
This same email address would be really inconvenient for some people who use gmail labeling for their RP journals, because it requires email specification for each specific journal. I.e.,

My personal journal:

Buffy's journal:

Damon's journal:

Etc., etc.

These show up as different emails for your server even though they go to the same place (I know this because when I try and retrieve my lost usernames, I have to use these specific filters individually). So, would I be able to temporarily change my e-mail to to make it function (which, if that works, people could just ... change their e-mail accounts/passwords/etc. for gifting icon slots between other people's accounts also) while I swapped over my icon slots, or would I just be screwed due to registering an account with a +specifier email?

/more to think about.

That said, I DO really love this icon slot transfer idea because so many times I would mourn the loss of my loyalty pics with LJ when I changed characters/journals/etc. It was the most depressing thing in the universe, so this way I'd be able to keep them through transfer, which is glorious. ;_; So, thank you, guys!
slays: (Default)

[personal profile] slays 2012-02-14 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)
SOBS I'M SORRY, we make life complicated, I know. Thank you for trying to/wanting to look into accommodating it. ;_;

Honestly I am just relieved to know it is a thing you're aware of and interested in accommodating laejklaejg DENISE, I CAN'T HANDLE THIS KIND OF CUSTOMER SERVIE, OKAY, IT'S TOO MUCH. CULTURE SHOCK. STOP BEING SO HELPFUL AND RESPONSIVE. I do not know a single company, online or otherwise, that's as aware and interested in customer support as you guys, man.
thorfinn: <user name="seedy_girl"> and <user name="thorfinn"> (Default)

Anything Can Happen

[personal profile] thorfinn 2012-02-15 02:30 am (UTC)(link)
You can't accommodate the + in email accounts that way. The left-hand-side of an email address is standards defined as being capable of being anything. Literally, anything. Not even just ascii limited.

What the LHS of the email does when someone tries to deliver to it is entirely up to the configuration of the server receiving the email. + is merely a "commonly used" standard, but is by no means necessarily meaningful in any way whatsoever... and you cannot tell whether it's meaningful except by actually trying to deliver email. And even then, you don't have useful information - servers can and will accept email for non-existing LHS addresses and quietly file in the bitbucket.

If you want to stick to email, you can have separate "owner email" and "contact email" addresses, thus allowing people to associate their identities with a single owner email, but have each journal be contacted only via the contact email.

Personally I think some kind of master account vs child account type situation is worth looking at, but that is much more complex and has its own issues to consider. :-)
thorfinn: <user name="seedy_girl"> and <user name="thorfinn"> (Default)

Re: Anything Can Happen

[personal profile] thorfinn 2012-02-15 02:51 am (UTC)(link)
I thought it was on the list, but wasn't sure. :-)

Possibly helpfully, "Owner email" and "Contact email" probably doesn't require additional explanation, I think people would mostly understand the difference just from the names alone.

Master/child account type stuff is not so obvious to explain to people.
pne: A picture of a plush toy, halfway between a duck and a platypus, with a green body and a yellow bill and feet. (Default)

Re: Anything Can Happen

[personal profile] pne 2012-02-15 11:58 am (UTC)(link)
The left-hand-side of an email address is standards defined as being capable of being anything. Literally, anything. Not even just ascii limited.

And if you want to follow the standard completely, it can even include comments and spaces around internal dots.

As in John . F (for Fitzgerald) .

(At least in RFC 822; I'm not sure whether RFC 2822 or whatever followed that tightened up the allowed syntax.)
thorfinn: <user name="seedy_girl"> and <user name="thorfinn"> (Default)

Re: Anything Can Happen

[personal profile] thorfinn 2012-02-16 01:41 am (UTC)(link)
No change in syntax that I can see. :-) And yes, RFC2822 is the correct one. Although I think I may have exaggerated - the LHS does appear to be limited to 7bit US-ASCII in RFC2822 and RFC2821. But that's still pretty wide. Mind you, there's SMTP protocol options for 8bit mime in transport, and extensions to support UTF8 content in RFC2822 messages (quoted-printable, etc), so...
pne: A picture of a plush toy, halfway between a duck and a platypus, with a green body and a yellow bill and feet. (Default)

Re: Anything Can Happen

[personal profile] pne 2012-02-16 07:24 am (UTC)(link)
And yes, RFC2822 is the correct one. : "Obsoletes: 2822"

I just didn't remember the number at the time :)
thorfinn: <user name="seedy_girl"> and <user name="thorfinn"> (Default)

Re: Anything Can Happen

[personal profile] thorfinn 2012-02-24 01:05 am (UTC)(link)
Ooops. Apparently I missed that. :-)
inarticulate: Aisling from The Secret of Kells (zomg!)

[personal profile] inarticulate 2012-02-13 10:26 pm (UTC)(link)
My only problem is that I can't tell if you mean "paid account in general" in the post or "just premium paid." Otherwise, this looks really interesting, and I'd be really curious about how it works out!
inarticulate: Ginshu from Amatsuki smiling. (<3_<3)

[personal profile] inarticulate 2012-02-13 10:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, interesting. Thank you for the clarification! :D
kerravonsen: (Default)

[personal profile] kerravonsen 2012-02-13 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)
This sounds nifty! I like the idea that the icon slots are permanent; it feels like great value for money! And also that it is less complicated to explain AND less complicated to implement.

I'm one of those seed account holders who haven't used up all their icon slots. Partly because I also have an LJ seed account and I crosspost everything, and LJ has fewer icon slots than DW does for seed accounts (212 versus 250). Also because I feel more comfortable having icon slots free for future use than filling them all up right now and then having to swap out icons later. Yes, I know, some people would call me silly.
dancing_serpent: (Default)

[personal profile] dancing_serpent 2012-02-14 08:41 am (UTC)(link)
Also because I feel more comfortable having icon slots free for future use than filling them all up right now and then having to swap out icons later. Yes, I know, some people would call me silly.

Not silly at all. That's exactly the reason why I haven't filled up all my icon slots yet. What if I discover a new fandom and have no slots free to upload new icons? I'd have to delete old ones (that I might still want to use!). So yeah, not filling up now.

[personal profile] rho 2012-02-13 10:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I have no interest in this personally (I don't even know how many icons I'm allowed; so long as it's higher than 0, I'm happy) but this seems like a sensible system. My biggest concern would be what would happen with compromised accounts.

For instance, user x has 20 extra icon slots. They also have an email address on hotmail that expired two years ago and a password of blink182. User y says "yoink" and takes their account, then transfers the icon slots over to their own account.

This isn't too hard to deal with (solution: baninate user y, give user x the icon slots back) but it's worth considering to make sure you have the robust admin back-end that will make doing so easy.
mark: A photo of Mark kneeling on top of the Taal Volcano in the Philippines. It was a long hike. (Default)

[staff profile] mark 2012-02-14 06:50 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for bringing this up! I will add this to my little todo list to keep this in mind in implementation.
usesprotection: (pic#2385345)

[personal profile] usesprotection 2012-02-14 10:04 pm (UTC)(link)
If someone doesn't log into an account for over two years and the email is defunct, they obviously aren't coming back for it.
fashenforcement: (fancy a shut up)

[personal profile] fashenforcement 2012-02-14 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)

[personal profile] rho 2012-02-14 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
To clarify, I was using the example as a shorthand to refer to any situation where someone gains unauthorised access to someone else's account. This includes:

* guessed passwords
* gaining control of the connected email address
* phishing
* use of keyloggers
* people leaving their account logged in on public computers
* etc.

One of the most common ways taht people get into accounts that aren't theirs is by registering the defunct email address that was used to create an account. I know that Mark and Denise both know this, hence why I used it in my example. I wasn't trying to say that this is the only case where it could be relevant.

(Also, you'd be surprised how many people do come back after years away. Certainly most accounts that have been abandoned for that long will stay abandoned, but there's a non-negligible minority who do come back.)
usesprotection: (pic#1624598)

[personal profile] usesprotection 2012-02-14 10:49 pm (UTC)(link)
So on a case-by-case basis, you have 99% of those people never coming back, which leaves them as owners of names and icon space someone else would actually use, and the 1% who may come back three years later and genuinely care that their account was recycled by someone else.

Maybe 0.5% of that 1% would make a stink about it instead of just making a new username. I was on LJ for seven years, saw the rise and fall of GJ/Inksome, and I have seen what people do with usernames. If someone doesn't log into an account for a year/two years or something, has no journal entries, it should become available for use again; LJ promised this numerous times. Ironically, they never followed through until we all left.
usesprotection: (pic#2385342)

[personal profile] usesprotection 2012-02-14 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, people remaking defunct emails to gain access to an abandoned username is something they only started doing because it would otherwise never get used. LJ wouldn't delete inactive accounts despite saying they'd purge every year or so.

Now, on the other hand, people who made a business of stealing usernames to sell, that to me is very underhanded. I don't agree with that at all. I agree with nabbing a name because no one is obviously coming back for it and you have plans for it. If the account has entries and people's personal stuff, again that's also different.

I'm talking just namesquatters.
usesprotection: (Default)

[personal profile] usesprotection 2012-02-14 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't say someone who logs in every 2 months to read whatever, I was talking specifically about accounts that have

-Not been logged into for years
-No entries
-Less than, say, 100-200 comments

It isn`t fair that during the migration a a month or two ago, people took upwards of 25 usernames just for the sake of having them, and will never touch them again. Even if a policy on it isn`t considered now, it`d be nice to see one down the line, is all I am saying.
pauamma: Cartooney crab holding drink (Default)

[personal profile] pauamma 2012-03-18 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)
It isn`t fair that during the migration a a month or two ago, people took upwards of 25 usernames just for the sake of having them, and will never touch them again.
I don't know where denise and mark set the namesquatting limit, so I can't say on which side your specific example would fall, but with that proviso, I would expect the pattern you describe qualifies as such. (And if it doesn't, I'm sure someone who can speak authoritatively will correct me.)
-Not been logged into for years
I'm not sure where I'd want the limit to be if that became available at all, but IMO 3 years (the time Dreamwidth has existed) would be way too low as a limit, so no account that currently exists should be eligible for username reclaiming. (I wouldn't want the limit to be under 30 years, personally. Or maybe 300.)
-No entries
-Less than, say, 100-200 comments
I wouldn't want an account that posted *any* comments to be eligible for username reclaiming. (I'm also leaning toward "no reclaiming unless the account owner deleted it", but I'm not deadset against that.)

(Disclaimer: [personal profile] bradfitzindrag is one of my alternate accounts. I wouldn't part with that username willingly unless Brad Fitzpatrick himself asked me to.)
usesprotection: (Default)

[personal profile] usesprotection 2012-02-14 11:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I guess I should put an addendum that I am part of the RP community who often have a very different perspective on username squatting. The sorts of names people typically want purged are "trend" names that get grabbed up "just in case" and then get forgotten about.

This includes a character's name, nouns, adjectives (hence why LJ had a prolific number of usernames ending in "-ed", "-ing" "-ly", etc), and other shorter usernames under ten letters.

I respect your stance on it and your respect towards account-holders and while I disagree, it's your policy and we should honor it.
automaticdoor: michelle obama looking super happy with the symbol \o/ (michelle \o/)

[personal profile] automaticdoor 2012-02-13 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I think this sounds like a great idea! I'm nowhere near close to using all my icon slots (and I'm probably going to be buying a premium paid account when my paid runs out next, haha, so, REALLY nowhere near close!) but I support this for people who want it! (This also means that you can use the bandwidth I'm not using for them!)

Also holy eff I want icon sets like you were talking about upthread. jdskgkajks YES YES YES. That way I can have holiday ones when I want them and not have them in my list otherwise.

[personal profile] swagneto 2012-02-13 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I honestly love the method you guys are presenting for this. From a consumer standpoint I think this is a fantastic idea (and I know next to nothing about economics, so you'll have to forgive me!) in that add ons have always struck me as a permanent fixture rather than temporary ones. Also the fact that you need a paid account seems perfectly understandable to me and basically I have nothing to contribute as far as discussion goes, except yes, do want.

The only thing I might see an issue with is maybe the numbers in that I'm curious if getting a premium paid (in terms of icons rather than features) will be nullified by the add ons + regular paid account.
ariestess: (Default)

[personal profile] ariestess 2012-02-13 11:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh how fun! I'm nowhere near my 250 currently, but this is something I would definitely want to do if I did max out...
bzero: C3PO from Star Wars (C3PO)

[personal profile] bzero 2012-02-13 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)
This seems very fair, cool, and uncomplicated. Kudos for explaining the thinking behind it and soliciting feedback BEFORE you jump in with both feet. One more reason why I <3 Dreamwidth.
bzero: Seeker From Ask a Seeker (Default)

[personal profile] bzero 2012-02-14 05:52 am (UTC)(link)
I know - crazy, right? And further kudos for working on features we actually want, instead of just, "Let's be Facebook" like just about every other site out there...
lannamichaels: Matt Smith holds two thumbs up, before heading into Certain Danger. Cap from season 5 promo trailers. (yay)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2012-02-14 12:01 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for doing this. :) I just want to second what other people have said, that if you could only transfer only some of them, that would be great. So the same way you can give dreamwidth points to people, I could donate a couple icon slots as a prize for a contest, or I could divide the extra spots between a couple of RP journals. This would especially be useful if, say, I have just a paid account and I want a bunch of extra icon slots, but not enough to make it be worth buying a premium paid for that account, so I get a lot of extra slots. It would be really great if that could be divided up instead of having to remain a chunk.
runpunkrun: rodney mckay looking intent (genius at work)

[personal profile] runpunkrun 2012-02-14 12:13 am (UTC)(link)
I like the idea of only having to buy extra icons once. Over at LJ my paid account and extra icons always expire separately, and it's a hassle to keep track of. Over here, I'm right up against the 100 icon limit and need some extra slots! I'm just worried that, because the extra icons will cost more upfront, it might seem like too much money to me.
boundbooks: Zhang Ziyi (dinosaur: running)

[personal profile] boundbooks 2012-02-14 12:35 am (UTC)(link)
I have two concerns with this proposed plan: permanent icon slots seems to be very similar to regular seed sale accounts, which DW has been against, and making the slots a permanent add-on would seems to negate the effect of the majority of low-usage users subsidize the high-volume users for expensive features.

Like seed sales, it's a one-time payment from the people who are most inclined to pay in the future. Unlike the current balancing of paid account features, this is not a case where the majority of low-volume icon users could subsidizing the small number of high-volume icon users. People who are buying more icons are doing so to use more icons.

With the current proposed icon addon packages, it seems to me like the worst of both worlds: it's a one time payment (sacrificing the future revenue of the people who would most likely pay for this feature) and everyone who buys more icons is a high-volume user (no one subsidizes).

As a user, this plan would be great because it's cheaper and easy for me. From a DW-business perspective, I'm not sure it works.

I'd really, really love to see why you and Mark feel that this one feature plan is the exception to two of those foundational practices for keeping DW in the black: not sacrificing long-term revenue for short-term profits, and boosting features by subsidizing it among many users.

I'm not trying to be a downer, but I'm just really confused by how this proposed plan wouldn't end up costing DW a lot of money in the long run.
stormerider: (Default)

[personal profile] stormerider 2012-02-14 06:31 am (UTC)(link)
So, we'll still be getting revenue from that account, and in fact might get more revenue from the account (people continuing to pay for their paid account because they don't want to lose access their icon slots, since they're more invested in having those icon slots -- enough to have paid for them -- where they might otherwise let the account lapse).

This is the only reason I renewed with LJ the last few years. Which reminds me, I need to trim down my icon list there before my time runs out again.
zellieh: kitten looking shocked, openmouthed, text: WTF? (What the fuck?) (Default)

[personal profile] zellieh 2012-02-15 03:17 am (UTC)(link)
Hah, me too! ::Opens a new tab, starts swapping icons around:: I have several months to go, but getting down to 15 is a painful process, so I've been trying to do it a bit at a time.
gumbie_cat: sketch of the original iron man armour (built this thing in a cave!)

[personal profile] gumbie_cat 2012-02-14 07:30 am (UTC)(link)
Honestly the biggest cost associated with large numbers of icons isn't the disk space and transfer associated with it, it's the computational cost of loading all the icon keywords/displaying all the icons in the icon selector drop-down and the UI cost of figuring out how to display and manage them all.

Triggered by you mentioning people liking to use their icon slots as a gallery (because gallery => museum => curation => YAY! in my head) and the fact that I'm personally never likely to max out my icon slots because I find large numbers of them unmanageable to sort through every time I comment and mostly only ever use the same 5 or so anyway...

Would it be possible to set things up so that icons could be sorted into categories (so for example I'd probably have fandom, knitting, books, and the all important misc) then have the icon browser only load your ~10 most used icons by default until you selected one of those categories?

I have no idea how complicated/easy something like that would be to do, or if it would even be worth it for the difference it'd make to the costs you mentioned.
kyrielle: A photo of kyrielle, in profile, turned slightly toward the viewer (Default)

[personal profile] kyrielle 2012-02-14 04:18 pm (UTC)(link)
...besides the resource savings for the site, being able to categorize my icons and look by category would be so shiny to me as a user. SO SHINY.

Also, an upload page that didn't waste time displaying my existing icons might also be handy. If I want to upload one or more icons, I usually don't feel the need to even glance at the others. I've picked the image out and just want to get it in place.
kyrielle: A photo of kyrielle, in profile, turned slightly toward the viewer (Default)

[personal profile] kyrielle 2012-02-14 05:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Or just make it one page where you can load in the stuff to be edited if you're going to edit it, or two variants on the same page (with a parameter), or....

Or not, if it's not worth the hassle for what it saves. But I seldom edit existing icons; if I go there, it's usually to upload a new one, and loading in the old ones is unnecessary. It may not be worth it to Dreamwidth to split it, in which case as far as I know it's harmless for me (maybe not for people on limited connections, but that's not me), tho.
turlough: green origami Stegosaurus ((other) not a cuddly toy)

[personal profile] turlough 2012-02-14 06:32 pm (UTC)(link)
We'd have to split the two

Oh no! As someone who changes icons a lot but always keeps the same keywords I'm dependent on being able to see my existing icons when I upload new ones. Otherwise I won't know which one I want to delete so I can transfer its keywords to the new one I'm uploading.
kaberett: Grinning emoticon. (:D)

[personal profile] kaberett 2012-02-14 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)
turlough: green origami Stegosaurus ((other) not a cuddly toy)

[personal profile] turlough 2012-02-15 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Isn't it the best thing ever?!! I found it over on LJ a while ago. Many different kinds of origami dinosaurs in fact.
kaberett: Grinning emoticon. (:D)

[personal profile] kaberett 2012-02-16 12:16 am (UTC)(link)

citymusings: (Chloe - Yay!)

[personal profile] citymusings 2012-03-25 06:20 am (UTC)(link)
♥ This whole plan and discussion page is making me so happy. I'm currently using about 30 of 250 icons because I like being able to see them all easily. If I could see most common + FandomX on one post and most common + FandomM on another, that would be amazing.
sophie: A cartoon-like representation of a girl standing on a hill, with brown hair, blue eyes, a flowery top, and blue skirt. ☀ (Default)

[personal profile] sophie 2012-02-14 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Some people will almost certainly pay once and then continue to use that icon slot for the next ten years, but that's offset by the people who pay once and then use that icon slot for maybe a year before they get tired of using DW and wander off (and thus don't use the icon slot over the X years we counted on for amoritzation).
Except that that doesn't take into account the fact that if they've wandered off the site, then they're not going to be removing any inactive icons. And I just tested and it seems that inactive icons still display on comments - which means that the bandwidth for displaying an extra icon is still going to be used. The fact that they can't use any others or upload any more isn't really the problem here if they've wandered off anyway.

LiveJournal gets around this by removing inactive icons from the server after 6 months. I couldn't see this in DW's FAQs, but since we forked from LJ, it seems reasonable to assume we do the same thing, in which case this issue isn't as bad as it seems. We should mention it in the FAQs, though, if this is indeed what we do. (And if we don't, it might be worth saying that as it would be different from what LJ does.)
Edited 2012-02-14 18:48 (UTC)
vatine: Generated with some CL code and a hand-designed blackletter font (Default)

[personal profile] vatine 2012-02-15 06:56 am (UTC)(link)
Mostly, because disk space, bandwidth, and processor power gets cheaper all the time (Moore's Law applies pretty universally)

I wouldn't take that as the gospel it used to be. Things will most probably continue getting cheaper, but slower. I'm fairly sure "computation per dollar" has had a slow-down in the increase over the last 3-4 years.
jumpuphigh: Pigeon with text "jumpuphigh" (Default)

[personal profile] jumpuphigh 2012-02-14 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
Another seed account here not even close to maxing out her icon spaces. I think, on average, I add about 10 icons per year. So, in 20 years, I'll be looking for extra icon space. :D I wonder what Dreamwidth will look like at that point.
libskrat: (souza)

[personal profile] libskrat 2012-02-14 01:30 am (UTC)(link)
Possibly a really stupid question, or I missed something, but: will icon slots be giftable?
libskrat: (dragonfly)

[personal profile] libskrat 2012-02-14 01:43 am (UTC)(link)
I meant the former, thanks!
yourlibrarian: DeanThatstheBreaks-hysterya (SPN-DeanThatstheBreaks-hysterya)

[personal profile] yourlibrarian 2012-02-14 02:57 am (UTC)(link)
This sounds like a great idea. I'll bet this will be a really popular gift feature.
tameiki: (Default)

[personal profile] tameiki 2012-02-14 03:15 am (UTC)(link)
Sounds like you guys have thought this through pretty well already! I like your idea even if I don't need any extra icon space, my friends probably wouldn't mind being gifted some. And, as [staff profile] denise mentioned in a comment below, the image hosting for icon sets sounds marvelous! \o/ *throws confetti*

Thank you for your clear communication and listening to user feedback!
0jack: Closeup of Boba Fett's helmet, angular orange stripe surrounding a narrow window on a greenish metallic field. (Walking out of the movie of my past.)

[personal profile] 0jack 2012-02-14 04:11 am (UTC)(link)
I like this idea. You're basically buying extra base capacity for your (paid, correct?) account.... which is remarkably generous of you. I do like the idea that it's an investment and not a recurring fee.

Are accounts going to be structured to have a master account at any point? Because then could you just wad up the total icon space a user has allowed to them and let them sort it out?
Edited 2012-02-14 04:11 (UTC)
finch: (Default)

[personal profile] finch 2012-02-14 06:51 am (UTC)(link)
I would like to +1 the idea of spreading icons over accounts under a master account.
0jack: Closeup of Boba Fett's helmet, angular orange stripe surrounding a narrow window on a greenish metallic field. (Default)

[personal profile] 0jack 2012-02-14 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay. :) Just curious. Good to know going forward.

The master/child accounts would be a whoppingly good paid feature. I would pay at least one zillion moneydollars* to be able to administer/post from a number of accounts linked to my main account.

*a relative term based on how much money I actually have at the time
kyrielle: A photo of kyrielle, in profile, turned slightly toward the viewer (Default)

[personal profile] kyrielle 2012-02-14 04:22 pm (UTC)(link)
You could charge more for a pooled icon slot than a non-pooled. So it's $X for an icon slot usable only on the account it's bought for, and $Y for one that you can transfer between pooled accounts. Some folks - roleplay communities come to mind again - might be better off with the $Y option. And there could be limits on how often you could move the things around without an additional fee.

Still not sure it's worth it. That adds complexity; the market for the feature may be less than is worth chasing.

...for a feature I don't think I'll ever use, this post and its comments are triggering my 'oo, shiny, brainstorm ideas' button a LOT. *wry*
lorax: Diana from White Collar, with text reading "this girl is taking bets" (WC - Diana "Girl is Taking Bets")

[personal profile] lorax 2012-02-14 05:49 am (UTC)(link)
I've been adding icons as I find them/want them, but kind of holding off because I was wary of hitting the limit and then having to delete, so the idea of extra, permanent slots is fantastic, and something I would probably most certainly use.

And as an RP'er who still mostly functions on IJ because of icon slots (it is HARD to get RPers to move over and away from 100 free slots), I love it as an enticement for Rpers. Paying for something and being able to KEEP it from account to account would be lovely.
februaryfour: (Default)

[personal profile] februaryfour 2012-02-14 06:08 am (UTC)(link)
I don't care for icons (*says the person who ONLY USES ONE and keeps old ones around because she can't be bothered to delete them*) but this looks fair/neat to me!
sashataakheru: (Default)

[personal profile] sashataakheru 2012-02-14 06:19 am (UTC)(link)
I really like this idea. Gods know I never understood the way LJ did their icon packs/paid accounts/idek. It was expensive enough with the exchange rate. Then they went and made it complicated.

Being able to buy icons and only pay once is a definite benefit. Particularly if I could only buy as many as I needed, rather than end up with IDK 300 icon slots when I don't really need that many.

At the moment, I mainly use my icon slots as fandom/pairing icons for when I post fic, but I'd be interested in buying an extra 10 or 20 if it meant I could have some more personal icons as well as keep something of a buffer, too.

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