denise: Image: Me, facing away from camera, on top of the Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome (Default)
Denise ([staff profile] denise) wrote in [site community profile] dw_biz2010-10-21 02:18 am

RFC: Multiple Account Model

So, one of the things we want to do -- and it's a project that has gotten some developer interest lately -- is make it so that you can associate/link accounts together, so (for instance) you can switch to commenting or posting as your alternate/secondary/fic/RP/whatever journal more easily than logging out and logging back in. We've done some work to spec the problem, but I figured it would be time to toss it out to you guys here and see what other things we've forgotten to think of and what use cases we don't know about yet!

More discussion on the problem can be found at Bug 76. Here are two of the documents that have been written to try to "spec out" the project. Please read them over if you have a chance, and give your feedback.

Draft spec, written by cesy

From one of the manage settings pages, have "manage secondary accounts"

On new manage secondary accounts page, have:
Create a new secondary account - standard flow, but is automatically already connected, and gets created with all the same settings as your primary account
Link an existing account to this one (requires password to the other account)
Unlink one of the secondary accounts from the primary account (has a large and obvious "Are you sure about that?" message)
An option to show/hide links between accounts - can display list of secondary accounts on primary profile, and link to primary profile on secondary profiles
An option to select which account is the primary journal - the primary journal will be default on things like the update page and when commenting

Other pages that will need updating:

Shop - as well as "buy paid time for me" and "buy paid time for another user", need "buy paid time for my secondary account(s)" (which might be discounted)

Edit profile drop-down should list all secondary accounts, as should customize style, manage filters, edit userpics, etc.

Update.bml needs both "post to journal" drop-down (includes all comms and all accounts) and "post as" drop-down (which is disabled if the secondary account can't post to that comm, and defaults to match the journal selected). "Post as" doesn't display unless you have secondary journals.

All comment boxes would need a drop-down to choose who to work as. Ideally this would show normally, not require clicking the "Other"/"More options" button. This should also not display for people who don't have secondary journals.

On options/settings pages, at the bottom, instead of just "Save", have "Save for this journal" and "Save for all journals" (but only if the user has a secondary journal, otherwise leave it as just "Save".)

Other notes:

If someone has given access to any one of your accounts, and you go to their journal, you see the locked entries.
If someone has given access to only one of your accounts, and you subscribe to them from another account, what happens when you look at the reading page of that account? Do you see the locked entries or not?

If you click to subscribe, unsubscribe, grant or remove access or join or leave a community and you get the usual confirmation page, that should include a "Do this as which account?" thing.
The pop-up hover menus should behave as usual for the main account, and ignore secondary accounts.

Can secondary accounts have different email addresses?

Creating a secondary account should require an invite code?

Have a careful think about transferring a secondary account from one primary account to another.

Further considerations, written by tyggerjai

Goal: To streamline management of multiple journals and journal features for a single user account. Mostly involving addition of “Manage accounts” interface, but with implications for ban settings, reading pages, and access lists.

[A note on terminology: Part of the current issue is that there is a conflation of a “journal” with an “account”. An “account” represents a human being, but it has become obvious that many DW users want and have multiple journals. This entire project stems from the fact that accounts and journals, while historically identical, are de facto different things. Discussion of which things are “account” based (login, killfiles, subscription, access to someone else's journal) and which things are “journal” based (tags, entries, access to read one of my journals) are probably beyond scope for this bug (although see “Potential problems” at the end). I shall use the term “journal” in this document unless I wish to make a point about the distinction, because at the moment, journal is the paradigm we have to work with.]

Annabel has a Dreamwidth journal – dw_annabel – which she started when she first found Dreamwidth. It has mostly personal updates about her life, but she doesn't talk about her work. Mostly because her mother reads the dw_annabel journal, and rather than maintain access lists, or risk having her mother find out what she actually does for a living, Annabel maintains another journal for her work stories – work_annabel. Recently, Annabel has discovered the joy of writing speculative fiction, so she has started another journal, fic_annabel, for working on a novel. She's co-writing it with her friend Boris, so Boris also has the password for that journal. Annabel is growing increasingly weary of constantly logging in and out to post on various journals, and she would like the following:

1)When she is logged in as “dw_annabel”, which she considers her “primary” account, she'd like to be able to manage all her journals from the management interface. Everything she can do to dw_annabel (style, circle management, privacy management, etc), she wants to do from one central screen as dw_annabel. It'd even be nice if she could choose to apply to things like screenings to all her journals at once, although she'd need to be able to change settings per-journal as well.

2)She'd like to be able to subscribe to some other journals via her personal journal, and some via her work journal (so that her mother never knows about them!). But she'd like to read them on the same page – one central reading page. She'd still like to be able to filter, though – for her fiction, sometimes she just wants to read fic_annabel's reading page.

3)Similarly, when she's reading as dw_annabel, she would like to read any post that has given access to her work_annabel or fic_annabel journals.

4)She'd like a link to the fic_annabel journal to show up on the profile for dw_annabel, and vice versa, as being her journals. But under no circumstances should her mother be able to discover a connection between dw_annabel and work_annabel!

5)Recently, she had someone making unpleasant comments in fic_annabel, and has banned them. She'd like that ban to be applied across all her journals – fic_annabel, dw_annabel and work_annabel. Just in case. But she'd also like to be able to revoke that ban just on fic_annabel, in case it turns out she's banned Boris.

6)When she goes to make a post she definitely needs to be able to choose which journal to post to. When she goes to leave a comment in she needs to be able to choose whether it shows up as a post from dw_annabel, fic_annabel, or annabel_work. She doesn't want to “log in” as fic_annabel – fic_annabel isn't a person, and she can do everything she needs to do to manage the fic_annabel journal as dw_annabel.

7)She can see a day, possibly soon, when she will grow weary of the fic_annabel story. She'd like to know that when the time comes, she can hand it off to Boris and untangle herself from it.

8)When she does that, she'll probably want to start another journal for her own fiction. She should be able to do that as dw_annabel, give it a new name, and start using it, without ever having to log in, log out, or otherwise manually tell the DW system that she owns it.

That's about all Annabel wants to do, really....

Skillsets: Everything and then some. This is backend, frontend, graphical, UX, business, scalability, and some things I haven't thought of yet.

[Another note on terminology. “Link” is somewhat overloaded here, since it can refer either to a managerial connection between to accounts, or a visible “a href=” on a profile page. I'll reserve “link” for the visible connection, and use “associate” for the higher level managerial connection.]

1)The project MUST provide a method of associating journals, with a single signon to edit and maintain them. Whether we call it “primary/secondary”, or “one account, many journals”, the heart of this project is the ability to log in as dw_annabel and modify fic_annabel and work_annabel. That has two components:

a) Migration of existing journals. It MUST be possible for a user with multiple journals to declare one of them a “primary” journal, and associate other existing journals with it.

b) Creation of future journals. It SHOULD be possible, once this project is implemented, to create journals with automatic association to an existing primary. (NB. This is a should because migration is a must, and if we have that, users can create and then migrate. Realistically, though, it's a “really should”.)

2)The project MUST provide a method for managing linked journals from a single central interface. This interface MUST replicate the current management functionality for each associated journal without requiring log out/log in for that journal account, if the user is logged in with their primary account credentials. This interface SHOULD provide the ability to apply changes to multiple journals at once, but if it does so, it MUST retain the ability to override settings on a per-journal basis.

3)The project SHOULD provide a single central reading page for the primary account, which will incorporate all journals to which all associated journals are subscribed. Such an interface SHOULD include locked posts to which any associated journal has access. However, if such an interface is present, it MUST be possible to filter that reading page on a per journal basis (i.e., if a user should be able to remove a given journals subscriptions from that central page). The project MUST maintain individual journal reading lists [that's more for backwards compatibility and privacy – I can currently go to work_annabel and see that reading list. It shouldn't suddenly show me dw_annabel's reading list.]

4)The project SHOULD allow a user to declare associations between journals as “Public” or “Private”. For “Public” associations, links SHOULD be shown on the profile pages of associated journals. Whether this is implemented or not, the project MUST NOT allow other users to see evidence of association between journals UNLESS the owner has explicitly declared the association public.

5)The project SHOULD allow a user to implement bans that apply to all associated journals. If implemented, this feature MUST allow a user to then rescind any given ban on any individual journal.

6)The project SHOULD implement the ability to easily select a journal to post TO when updating. The project SHOULD implement the ability to easily choose a journal to past AS when commenting on a journal. [Note: These are only shoulds because we will almost certainly retain the account/journal conflation, and therefore in theory it's possible to log out and in again. I think the focus of this bug is really the management, and this posting interface is gravy, but it's important gravy]. If implemented, the commenting interface SHOULD restrict the choice to journal identities with commenting privileges, and MUST NOT allow journal identities to comment when they are not privileged to do so. That is, if journal annabels_friend has restricted commenting access, and allows comments only from dw_annabel, the interface MUST NOT allow annabel to comment as fic_annabel or work_annabel.

7)The project SHOULD implement a mechanism for removing an associated journal. Once removed, a journal will behave like any other non-associated journal.

8)The project MAY implement the ability to “sub-associate” journals with other users. That is, while ultimate control of the account rests with the creator, they can grant other users the ability to post to the journal, or post as the journal identity, change settings, etc, without giving the other user password access. The other user MUST NOT inherit access to posts that the journal identity has been granted. (i.e., Annabel gives Boris post and edit privs to fic_annabel. Boris's reading list still does not contain items from fic_annabel's subscriptions, nor can he see items to which fic_annabel has been granted. He can, however, post as fic_annabel ). See “Potential problems” :)

Potential Problems: Where do I start? On the bright side, I think most of our problems are social rather than technical.

1)Migrating accounts. I included the shared account with Boris for a reason. Let's say we're as restrictive as possible, and the following is required to migrate an account:

a) You must have access to both email addresses, to reply to “confirm” emails. You must know the password for both accounts.

Ok. But Boris has the password, and the email address for that account is a shared one. So even once Annabel has migrated, Boris can just remigrate it. This is a problem with the existing paradigm – because journals and accounts are the same, passwords are the only control mechanism. There's no way of knowing Annabel created the account. I think that for the moment we put this in the “too hard” basket, and say “Social problem, sort it out yourselves”. We lock it down so you can only migrate an account if you have both passwords, and can respond to emails sent to both accounts. There's really not much else we can do. ( as an aside, this is the classic example of why the “single account, multiple journals” is a better long-term paradigm, but this is almost a de facto implementation of that). After a journal has been migrated, do we have a complaints resolution process for Boris to say “Hey, she stole my journal”? I don't know that we need one – what's our current procedure for people sharing passwords and then one of them changing it to lock someone else out?

2)To be honest, everything else just looks like hard work. We really, really have to make sure that the commenting interface enforces identity restriction. If you have a locked post that tyggerjai can comment on, we DO NOT let tyggerdev comment on it, even though they're the same “person”. That's the ultimate UX nono, as far as I can see.

3)Oh. Sub-association. That's down the end as a “may” because although it's a huge, huge advantage that the “Association” paradigm has over the password paradigm, it's the biggest can of worms. It's almost a whole other specification on its own. But the main points, I think, are there. Give Boris edit/post access, but restrict privacy inheritance to the original owner. There's one massive thing preventing the implementation of subassociation, though, and that's what happens if Annabel then removes her association with fic_annabel. Does Boris then inherit the access as the new owner? Does dw_annabel keep the access, and if so, with which journal do we associate it? None of this is worse than our existing paradigm with passwords – in fact, it's a lot better, because if we do need to, we can suspend fic_annabel's access to everything, send emails out to people who have given fic_annabel access saying “This journal is changing owner! If you know the new owner and you're cool with it, click here to retain their access rights. If you don't know the new owner, click here to send an email to the old owner, so they can get in touch with you to arrange new access. Or, if this is freaking you out, click here to revoke the journal's access to your journal for good.”. But this is exactly the kind of thing that makes users nervous, and that we have to have a plan for. So at the moment, it's an itty bitty “may”, and if users want to hand a journal over to someone else, they can disassociate, give the new owner the email, and move on from there. But I think we may still need to handle the access notification in that case, simply because by implementing association, we give the impression that we're moving from “Anyone could have the password to this journal so be careful” to “No, your friend owns this journal, it's fine! “

4)Actually, all of that, again, regardless of subassociation: by implementing association, we give the impression that we're moving from “Anyone could have the password to this journal so be careful” to “No, your friend owns this journal, it's fine!”. Which, of course, we're not – journals will still have passwords, and other people may still know them. We could go all the way, and break the map between journals and accounts once and for all, so journals don't have passwords, but that's a much bigger project, I think.

5)Preselecting identities to comment as based on a post's access rules is going to suck. Just saying :)

Anyway. This section should probably be much longer, but I've left it as an Exercise For The Reader, since you know your community better than I do at the moment. I think the biggest problems are social – that associating journals with users sets up an interesting disconnect – if I give tyggerdev access because I've read it and I'm interested in the dev stuff, then if the owner of tyggerdev decides he's sick of coding, but gives the journal to someone else, I don't really care. I had no investment in the person. On the other hand, maybe I did – maybe I gave tyggerdev access to my journal because I know the owner. So then when he gives it away, I'm shattered! I don't know this person! What's going on!? Again, it's no worse than the existing password-sharing shenanigans in terms of actual security, only in terms of perception. And it's only a problem ever if we let people give journals away.

So! What thoughts does this inspire in you?
lanterne_rouee: i believe in dreamwidth plus a typewriter (dw believe typewriter)

[personal profile] lanterne_rouee 2010-10-21 10:59 am (UTC)(link)
Hey, there! :)

Do you use Firefox? There's a Greasemonkey extension that lets you collapse posts you've read before. It's the most wonderful thing, possibly ever. (Do you know about this already? If so, ignore. lol)

I reread your comment a couple of times and I can easily imagine why entirely different people would be subscribed to your various journals (whether they know they're all yours or not), but I'm curious about why you (i.e., anyone, hypothetical or real) would subscribe to the same journal from more than one journal of your own. (I'm inferring that you do, because you said you have to wade through things you've already read.) I'm trying to put myself in your/Annibel's place and I'm having trouble coming up with an imaginary scenario for it... Probably simply because I don't do it now and we're all different! lol

The thing about remembering where you wanted to leave a comment was going to be solved by another feature, wasn't it? I forgot what they were calling it... It wasn't notes, because that was for making little notes by usernames that only you can see, but I seem to recall it's been brought up before elsewhere. I'll be so happy when/if we get that. There's so much more interesting stuff to read and respond to on here than I can keep up with in a timely fashion.

Anyway, I'm glad a lot of different user experiences are coming up here in the comments. It's kind of fascinating. :)
Edited (typo and i love the fact that we can fix them!) 2010-10-21 11:22 (UTC)
ephemera: celtic knotwork style sitting fox (Default)

[personal profile] ephemera 2010-10-21 11:58 am (UTC)(link)
I do use Firefox, but I've never really messed around with greasemonkey - I'll have to give that a try. Thank you.

Partly, I admit, the overlap on the reading circle is a hangover from LJ, where reading = granting access, but also because I want to interact with some of my core folks as more than one persona - as a concrete example, one of my best friends is also my orig fic beta reader - and I hers - and we co-mod a couple of fandom communities and channels, and - not everyone reading her posts knows that all the me's are me, so I want to comment on writing related posts in her journal as author-me, or fandom related posts as fandom-me, or in another friends case, on her professional posts with my work-me journal, and fandom posts with my fandom journal, and I want to be able to do that without having to log back in and out, and commenting as another journal a) involves remembering all my passwords and I'm miserable at that, and b) no icon control, and particularly in the fandom journal's part of the ven, icon choice generally plays a big part in the comment conversation.)

Also because experience has proved to me that I don't actually remember to log out, log back in, and read my reading page for all four journals on a regular basis, so if I often start off reading someone on author-me journal and then realise that I want to see their posts more regularly than the weekly or so I manage to have computer time at the computer with the four firefox profiles, so also add them to my primary journal's reading list ...

Also, thinking of someone who's following two of my journals without knowing they're related, because saying 'oh, by the way, I'm not following you back because I'm already reading you as this other account' is a very thorough way of outing myself as both parties, and while there's a social convention of following back people who follow you, which there is in a lot of circles, not joining in either looks like you're not really wanting to be part of the community.

(Most - but not all - of the people who subscribe to more than one of my journals know that they're all me - I'm fairly open in my locked primary journal about who the other me's are - on my public work-facing journal I don't ever mention that I have other journals though)

The convenience of having the system recognise that I'm *me* regardless of which journal I'm logged in, and giving me my consolidated reading page, and allowing me to fully interact moving more seamlessly between the journals, would make my life *so much easier*. I know most of the problems / situations have work arrounds, it just adds up to a ton of effort that makes things not-fun.
lanterne_rouee: i believe in dreamwidth plus a typewriter (dw believe typewriter)

[personal profile] lanterne_rouee 2010-10-21 12:21 pm (UTC)(link)
No problem! :) Thank you, yourself! You explained all of that so clearly. Got it now, why that would be much easier on you.

I was saying to someone else above, that the more journals you have, it seems like it would be worse to have everything on one page, not better. (Though that was in the context of having dozens of journals.) Do you think it's likely that you'd forget to change which username you're replying with if your different reading pages were all mixed in together?

Just curious. I'm terrible at remembering different passwords as well, but I also tend to get engrossed in what I'm reading. So, I'm imagining right now that if everything were on one page, and if I was following a lot of different people/communities on each journal, there'd be so many conversations going on that I might feel more rushed or pressured to respond to more things, sooner, and therefore I'd end up being less careful of who I was posting as. (Hopefully that makes sense. I'm tired and that seems like a very long sentence. lol)

Although, it just occurred to me that this might be the better situation in which to use those color codes. The colors that go around the border of other people's user icons, (What is that called? I don't actually use it.), to differentiate which journals' reading list the posts are from. Seems like they should be differentiated in some way... Or at least, it would be nice; maybe not 'should'.
tyggerjai: (Default)

[personal profile] tyggerjai 2010-10-21 12:39 pm (UTC)(link)
*nod* The color thing is a good idea. Bear in mind, though, that you will always be able to read your journal reading lists separately. It's possible that for you, the only thing this project delivers is the ability to do that without having to log out and back in. Which is cool - it's all about flexibility and letting people use DW the way they want.
lanterne_rouee: i believe in dreamwidth plus a typewriter (dw believe typewriter)

[personal profile] lanterne_rouee 2010-10-21 12:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks! Have you guys brainstormed yet about whether you want to mark posts from different reading lists in some way (and how) on the combined page - if there's a combined page?

Yes, that's very possible. Technically, I have more than one account, but I've only used one so far. lol Once this is implemented, I imagine I'll have more motivation. (Where the time and energy will come from though, remains a mystery. XD)

Thank you for working on this!
tyggerjai: (Default)

[personal profile] tyggerjai 2010-10-21 12:53 pm (UTC)(link)
We haven't really discussed it, but I certainly had some kind of marker in mind. It's probably easier to tag them with the name of the journal reading list it comes from, just because managing colors in one reading list is something I find hard enough. But I definitely foresee some kind of differentiation.
lanterne_rouee: i believe in dreamwidth plus a typewriter (dw believe typewriter)

[personal profile] lanterne_rouee 2010-10-21 01:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, yeah! Tagging!

As I was typing that bit about the colors, I thought: Oh, no, I've just suggested another huge load of work for someone. :/

I'm glad there are other possibilities. :)

opera_cat: (roses)

[personal profile] opera_cat 2010-10-21 02:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I love it so much that you guys keep this stuff in mind.
lanterne_rouee: i believe in dreamwidth plus a typewriter (dw believe typewriter)

[personal profile] lanterne_rouee 2010-10-22 08:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Anything like that would have to be both color flag and text flag, too, because color-only cues are inaccessible to the blind, low-vision users, and people who are colorblind!

Thanks for pointing this out, because it completely slipped my mind at the time.
azurelunatic: A glittery black pin badge with a blue holographic star in the middle. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2010-10-22 12:28 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm. I was going to say "So wrap each entry in a style indicating which journal's reading list it's from, then, and let the individual styles/users sort out how exactly they want that displayed", but then I remembered that someone might be on the reading list of more than one journal. Woops.
pne: A picture of a plush toy, halfway between a duck and a platypus, with a green body and a yellow bill and feet. (Default)

[personal profile] pne 2010-10-22 04:07 am (UTC)(link)
Is that really a problem, though?

Then the entry would be marked with CSS classes "user-azurelunatic readby-dw-annabel readby-fic-annabel readby-work-annabel", and it's up to the user to do some creative CSS to prioritise such multi-readby people.